Question about the Church?

[Bob in WI]

caballoviejo posted:

Devils don't have faith anymore than Satan has faith.

Are you saying that faith and belief are two seperate things?

Apparently you can believe, but still not be saved.

James 2:19 (King James Version)
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



The word believe means more than just intellectual faith, because the Bible says, "The devils also believe. . . "
Why, the devil is a fundamentalist, and he is orthodox. He believes in Christ. He believes in the Bible. He believes the whole business of religion. He is even in the religion business.

Intellectually, he believes in the dogma (doctrine). He believes in the creeds. But the devil has never been saved and he is not going to heaven. You may be able to recite theology, but I tell you that is not enough. There must be a real commit- ment to Christ.

Have you done that? Have you come with everything? Have you allowed Him to change your life in full surrender? Can you say, "Jesus is my Savior? I'm am trusting in Him and Him alone for salvation. By faith I surrender to Him? I am willing to obey Him and follow Him form this moment on!

- Billy Graham

[caballoviejo]

Yes. However, to believe in the name of Jesus is faith(I don't mean the word "Jesus")

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[andrew]

We Gentiles are not under the law, but we are expected to produce good works because of our faith.

Is there anyone here that disagrees with that statement? River?

[caballoviejo]

We Gentiles are not under the law, but we are expected to produce good works because of our faith.

Is there anyone here that disagrees with that statement? River?

Not me. But I question whether we can consistently recognize the good works of others. Motive is involved. The same "work" done by one person could count for nothing, in God's eyes, for another person. Our faith is the greatest "good work." Love for God and other individuals comes from the Sprit living in us.

[River Runner]

We Gentiles are not under the law, but we are expected to produce good works because of our faith.

Is there anyone here that disagrees with that statement? River?

Under the New Testament…there’s neither Jew nor Gentile. Everyone must obey the gospel. We’re not under the “old law” or the “law of Moses”…but we are under the law of Christ or the New Testament.

According to James, we can’t have an obedient faith without there being action (or works) on our part. Remember James’ letter was written to “brethren”…but James was obviously questioning some of them, because of their lack of faith. You’ve heard the expression, “actions speak louder than words”. To paraphrase…James says, “Ya’ll say you have faith, but I don’t see the results of your faith. Where’s your works? Where’s that faith put into action.” Some of them had stopped “doing”…and James was reminding those Christians that they had better get busy. For the Christian…saying and not doing ain’t good enough. Faith alone won’t cut it.

And faith alone at the beginning (before one becomes a Christian) ain’t good enough with God either. Jesus said, “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) Jesus also said in Matthew 7:24-27 that a “wise man” was a “hearer and doer”. That’s why Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”

[andrew]

I don't agree with you. I think James was writing to his fellow Jews, and Paul was writing to the Gentiles. I believe Paul was given greater insights about God's plan for salvation than was James. Not one individual in the whole world remains unable to sin. You and I and all of us have sins. Being baptized didn't end our sin problem. The sin problem is still there. If God wipes you clean, you still have to live a perfect life. Now the scriptures do say be ye perfect as God is perfect. How do you think we can be perfect? It is the Lord that justifies us. It is His gift to us. I also don't believe that baptism is a make or break commandment. If you can obey God in being baptized, then wonderful. If you accept Christ as your savior, but die on the battlefield before you have a chance to obey...it's another sin that God is fully able to forgive. The Bible doesn't say that the man that is not baptized will not be saved.

The problem with your position, at least for me, is you bring a intolerably legalistic road to Salvation. No one can realize their every sin. No one can ever be justified because of what they do and for me this would include a must have correct understanding of baptism. We're all justified by what Jesus Christ did, not what we do.

At the age for 40, a Christian dies...he never got baptized. If he had lived another 5 years, he would have found your message, and gotten baptized. According to you, he isn't saved....but it is not his fault that your message didn't get to him in time. This is why your teachings are an obstacle to the Christian faith that saves.

Why put others under a burden that even you cannot or could not have met at one time in your life? What age were you baptized? My Grandfather was baptized in his 70s. All those years before he was baptized, he could have died from many things and been lost for eternity under your plan. And it's not God plan that it be that way.

[River Runner]

I don't agree with you. (Andrew…it’s not me that you’re disagreeing with.) I think James was writing to his fellow Jews, and Paul was writing to the Gentiles. I believe Paul was given greater insights about God's plan for salvation than was James. (What is your “I think” based on? Do you have some evidence?) Not one individual in the whole world remains unable to sin. You and I and all of us have sins. Being baptized didn't end our sin problem. The sin problem is still there. (You are correct, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; - Romans 3:23) If God wipes you clean, you still have to live a perfect life. Now the scriptures do say be ye perfect as God is perfect. How do you think we can be perfect? (We can’t be perfect in the since of being without sin…but we can strive for perfection by living according to God’s word and then repenting and asking for forgiveness when we fall short. Please note that, “16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. – 2 Timothy 3:16,17. And in Act 8 we learn that Simon the Sorcerer [who was a baptized believer or a Christian according to Acts 8:13] that later tried to buy the gifts of the Spirit, was told to, “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. – Acts 8:22) It is the Lord that justifies us. It is His gift to us. I also don't believe that baptism is a make or break commandment. (Why do you believe that? What is that belief based on?) If you can obey God in being baptized, then wonderful. If you accept Christ as your savior, but die on the battlefield before you have a chance to obey...it's another sin that God is fully able to forgive. (Yes God is all powerful…but will he go against his own will? Where does it say that God will make exception to those who don’t obey his word?) The Bible doesn't say that the man that is not baptized will not be saved. (Question: What is the opposite of…He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; - Mark 16:16? Besides…“the Bible doesn’t say”…is a weak line of reasoning. The Bible doesn’t say “not” to smoke crack cocaine. Do you think that’s ok? When your boss ask you to do something…does he need to tell you a thousand things not to do? When you get pull over for doing 90mph in a 70mph speed zone…tell the officer you didn’t see a sign that said not to do 90mph…and see where it gets you.)

The problem with your position, at least for me, is you bring a intolerably legalistic road to Salvation. No one can realize their every sin. No one can ever be justified because of what they do and for me this would include a must have correct understanding of baptism. We're all justified by what Jesus Christ did, not what we do. (You’re preaching universal unconditional salvation. Where does the Bible teach that? If there’s nothing we can do…why bother in “believing”. You seem to have a problem with baptism…where do you stand on repentance? Question: Why would God command us to repent…if [according to you] if we’re not capable of realizing when we sin? Sounds like a “cop out” to me.)

At the age for 40, a Christian dies...he never got baptized. (First off…your burden of proof is whether or not he was a Christian before he was baptized. Where does the Bible teach that?) If he had lived another 5 years, he would have found your message, and gotten baptized. According to you, he isn't saved....but it is not his fault that your message didn't get to him in time. This is why your teachings are an obstacle to the Christian faith that saves.

Why put others under a burden that even you cannot or could not have met at one time in your life? What age were you baptized? My Grandfather was baptized in his 70s. All those years before he was baptized, he could have died from many things and been lost for eternity under your plan (It’s not my plan). And it's not God plan that it be that way. (Ok…so what is God’s plan? Please show us an example of Christian conversion in the book of Acts where baptism wasn’t required. Can you supply one…just one example in the book of Acts, where faith only was required?)

[andrew]

Can you supply one…just one example in the book of Acts, where faith only was required?)

Acts 16 would be the only one I can think of where the jailer was told to believe and he and his household would be saved, but even that is weak since Acts 16:33 says they were baptized, this obviously, after being learning about Jesus. But what if they had died while they were being taught about it? Wouldn't their faith have saved them?

[River Runner]

Can you supply one…just one example in the book of Acts, where faith only was required?)

Acts 16 would be the only one I can think of where the jailer was told to believe and he and his household would be saved, but even that is weak since Acts 16:33 says they were baptized, this obviously, after being learning about Jesus. But what if they had died while they were being taught about it? Wouldn't their faith have saved them?

Acts 16:30-33

30: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32: And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33: And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Please notice in vs. 30 it says, “thou shalt be saved”…it doesn’t say is or are saved. They weren’t saved at the point of faith, but they were saved when they rendered obedience in baptism. What makes you think they weren’t taught about baptism? They not only were taught, they submitted to baptism straightway or immediately.

If one is saved only after being baptized (Mark 16:16), and died on the way to being baptized…what do you think (according to God’s word) would happen? It’s not God’s fault that someone doesn’t obey sooner instead of later. If fact, it’s not God’s fault if one never hears the gospels and dies lost.

In the great commission Jesus said, “…Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (Mark 16:15,16). And Paul proclaimed in Colossians 1:23, “…be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven…”

Evidently the apostle Paul and others during the first century took preaching the gospel to the lost very serious. Please note that Paul said at that point in time everyone in the world had had an opportunity to hear the gospel and obey it. Now, is it God's fault that today there are people running around in jungles that have never heard of God, much less had the opportunity to obey the gospel? Absolutely not! It’s the Christian’s responsibility to spread the gospel…not God’s. God has always used man to spread His word.