A question about faith, obedience and works

[lindacarol]

It truly makes me sad that some theologians go to such lengths to convolute such a plain scriptural doctrine.
It can't be any plainer than this:
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

Everyone who has posted and cited scripture here has been practicing theology, that is, studying God.
It is an act that is integral to the most important commandment. Everyone who reads and studies to know and love God is a theologian. Like the splinters in our neighbor's eye, it is often difficult to see well, or at all, without first clearing or examining the bias of one's own eye. That is true of me and everybody here.

What was plain to Paul was not plain or customary to Peter (and vice versa). What was plainly taken for granted by the studied religous leaders of His time was not at all "plain" to Jesus.

I think it important, for rational discussion, that we be able to say directly what each of us means by "baptism"
without allusion or inference, or guessing. And no, is is not obivously plain or else we should not have different "obvious" conclusions.

Good point. What is plain to each of us is our perception of what we have experienced. So what does it mean to me to believe and be baptized? You gotta do more than believe, you gotta surrender your will and will his will.

To me baptism means a completed transaction of the will in which I exchange my will for His. Water baptism on the other hand is not just an outward sign of this transaction, it is a sacramental ritual. The act itself imparts a grace. But that act does not impart salvation. No physical act can do that. I was baptized at the age of 6, I was raised believing in Him, yet at age 18 I became an agnostic rather than reconcile my life style with my beliefs. Even after believing in Him and experienceing water baptism, I didn't have the relationship with Him that I now have until I was in my thirties.

Becoming whole, accetping salavation is a spiritual act, a tranaction in the will which water baptism typifies. The tranaction of will that allows one to become a new creature in Christ Jesus is three fold: believeing, dying, resurrecting. I became a new creature the day I expressed a willinglness to believe that He is, and that if He is, I was ready to lay down my right to myself (die to self) and let His will for my life become my will (become alive to him).

For me, conviction of sin came after this transaction. The awareness of a new life in me came immediately after this transaction and several weeks before adult water baptism. So that is what is plain to me when I read this simple explanation of how to be saved.

Salvation is a complete tranaction of the will in which one believes on Him, dies to self rule, and surrenders to His rule. Does that make it my work? No, no, no. All of Him, none of me. He laid me low on that road to Damascus, where I had no palatable choice but to surrender. PTL for his continual mercies.

So what does it mean to you to be baptized? What is plain to you?

[Irene texas]

Lindacarol, What is plain to me, I like simple. You explain it very well.

When a man or woman is converted, [ excepting Jesus ] they are in the last of the three states, At first, they were natural men and woman. They made excuses for rejecting Christ, or they pretended to accept him while they really did not. They lived their lives in security, never fearing Hell or condemnation for their sin. They were asleep in sin. They conforted themselves by thinking they were no worse than others. They thought they were saved. Actually they were " dead in trespasses and sins" [ Ephesians 2-1] But they did not know it. They were happy with themselves.
When you are awakened, you will then be horror stricken by how blind you were, You will then realize how evil your sins are. You won't know how to get rid of your sins.
Then at long last, some of you will submit to Jesus Christ, and rest in him. Your mind will be occupied with the thought of Jesus dying to pay for your sins on the Cross. You will be filled with the thought of him rising from the dead and ascending into Heaven, in the right hand of God. Your thoughts will go out to Christ in Heaven . You will be washed from your sins by his Blood. You will then be converted.
For by grace are ye saved through faith, Not of works, lest any man should boast [ Ephesians 2-8-9]
I believe Baptism is something you want to do, because your saved, To me its showing the world I am saved. I am not ashamed to be a child of God. I am not ashamed to speak out for Christ.
Irene

[River Runner]

I believe Baptism is something you want to do, because your saved, Irene

Irene…you have baptism after salvation. But, Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) Jesus says you’re not saved until after baptism…not before.

[caballoviejo]

I believe Baptism is something you want to do, because your saved, Irene

Irene…you have baptism after salvation. But, Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16:16) Jesus says you’re not saved until after baptism…not before.

I think this conclusion stretches the text. Jesus didn't really say "You're not saved until after baptism.He said what is quoted above (and more of the verse which has been left off).


In English we are ingrained by custom to give priority according to sequence. The first thing is more important than the second, then the third, etc. However, in Jewish thinking, these are of equal value regardless of position. The exmple I've read was "I am the Way, the truth, and the light." But He wasn't saying the the way 1st, or primarily and lastly and least important the light - Instead, these descriptors are all equal and all together at the same time: way:truth:life - life:truth:way - truth:life:way - way:life:truth. They have equal weight.

Finally, momentous conclusions may not be best made on the basis of Mark 16:16. -

From Wikipedia:

Most scholars take 16:8 as the original ending and believe the ending (16:9-20) was written later and by another hand as a summary of Jesus' resurrection appearances and several miracles performed by Christians. In this summary of other gospel sources, the author refers to Mary Magdalene, two disciples, and then the Eleven (the Twelve Apostles minus Judas). The text concludes with the Great Commission, declares eternal life for believers and condemnation for nonbelievers, and pictures Jesus sitting at God's right hand.[1]

Contemporary scholars conclude that Mark's traditional ending was not part of the original text.[1] Textual critics have traced various versions of Mark's ending back to the earliest extant manuscripts. An alternative, shorter ending appears on some ancient manuscripts, sometimes combined with the traditional ending, and an additional exchange between Jesus and the eleven had appeared in some manuscripts by the 4th century. The most likely origin for the Longer Ending is that it was written early in the second century, summarizing evidence for Jesus' resurrection.[2] It may have been appended to the gospel in the middle of the second century.[2] It does not fit verses 1-8 well, suggesting it was not written to be Mark's ending.[1]

If you don't like Wikipedia:

From The New Revised Standard Version:

Footnote at "the" end of Mark: Some of the most ancient authorities bring the book to close at the end of verse 8. One authoritye concludes the book with the shorter ending; others include the shorter ending and then continue with verses 9-20. In most authorities, verses 9-20 follow immediately after verse 8, though in some of these authorities the passage is marked being doubtful. Other ancient authorities add Amen, other ancient authorities add, in whole or in part "And they excused themselves saying........: (about a hundred words more).

w


Citing a bit more of the text:

"The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemed...

Note that when Jesus states the negative case in the second half of the sentence ("but the one who does not believe will be condemed") he doesn't even mention baptism! Not only is baptism no longer alluded to in sequence (baptism mentioned before Salvation (the opposite of condemed) its gone! Where did it go! - only BELIEF is mentioned. Has He so quickly discarded the importance of Baptism?

Nah. Both belief and baptism are necessary for salvation.

Of course that begs the question, "what is baptism?"

[River Runner]

The ” scholars” can scoff all they want to about the “later” part of Mark, but Mark’s account of the great commission is in harmony with Matthew’s and is actually what took place throughout the Book of Acts.

Mark 16:15,16

“15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Matthew 28:18-20

“18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

Think of it in mathematical terms…it’s as simple as 2 + 2 = 4.
Jesus kept it very simple…Believeth + Baptism = Salvation.

Citing a bit more of the text:

"The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemed...

Note that when Jesus states the negative case in the second half of the sentence ("but the one who does not believe will be condemed") he doesn't even mention baptism! Not only is baptism no longer alluded to in sequence (baptism mentioned before Salvation (the opposite of condemed) its gone! Where did it go! - only BELIEF is mentioned. Has He so quickly discarded the importance of Baptism?

Nah. Both belief and baptism are necessary for salvation.

Of course that begs the question, "what is baptism?"

Why doesn’t Jesus mention baptism in the later part of Mark 16:16…because being baptized doesn’t mean a thing, unless you first believe. Remember what Jesus said in John 8;24 – “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” If you don’t first have faith in Christ, what’s the use in being baptized…you’re already condemned.

What is baptism? Cab…I answered that at the bottom of page two…

The Bible is very plain about many things…including baptism.

Jesus commanded in Mark 16:15,16 –

“…Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

And in Acts 8:35, 36 –

“35: Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?”

When Philip “preached unto him Jesus” he obviously taught the eunuch about baptism, because when they approached a body of water the eunuch replied, “See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?” Philip was fulfilling the command of Jesus in Mark 16:15, 16.

When Paul wrote the Ephesians letter, through inspiration he declares that there is “one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5). And in Romans 6:3-5 Paul said,

“3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”

Jesus requires baptism and the Bible defines it as a burial…not a sprinkling, not a pouring. Please note in Acts 8:38,39, the great detail in describing what took place with the eunuch…

“38: And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39: And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”

[caballoviejo]

"The ” scholars” can scoff all they want to about the “later” part of Mark, but Mark’s account of the great commission is in harmony with Matthew’s and is actually what took place throughout the Book of Acts."

River, there is no tone of scholars scoffing about the endings of Mark. Not a hint of it.

Concerning Baptism and Salvation, I understand that you believe that baptism is a requirement that must preceed Salvation and that you believe that a Baptism by immersion in water is required.

[River Runner]

Concerning Baptism and Salvation, I understand that you believe that baptism is a requirement that must preceed Salvation and that you believe that a Baptism by immersion in water is required.

Cab…I do believe that…but I believe that, because that’s what the scriptures teach. And I try to encourage others to do…what the scriptures teach…because it’s the only way, which we can be pleasing and acceptable to God.

I wish you well in your endeavors to glean truths from God’s word.

[caballoviejo]

Concerning Baptism and Salvation, I understand that you believe that baptism is a requirement that must preceed Salvation and that you believe that a Baptism by immersion in water is required.

Cab…I do believe that…but I believe that, because that’s what the scriptures teach. And I try to encourage others to do…what the scriptures teach…because it’s the only way, which we can be pleasing and acceptable to God.

I wish you well in your endeavors to glean truths from God’s word.

That's well received, River. Thank you. One request of you: more than wish - pray that I will rightly understand the heart of God by way of scripture and and the Spirit.

[River Runner]

Concerning Baptism and Salvation, I understand that you believe that baptism is a requirement that must preceed Salvation and that you believe that a Baptism by immersion in water is required.

Cab…I do believe that…but I believe that, because that’s what the scriptures teach. And I try to encourage others to do…what the scriptures teach…because it’s the only way, which we can be pleasing and acceptable to God.

I wish you well in your endeavors to glean truths from God’s word.

That's well received, River. Thank you. One request of you: more than wish - pray that I will rightly understand the heart of God by way of scripture and and the Spirit.

Cab...if you "rightly divide" you'll "rightly understand"...

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[caballoviejo]

Good point. What is plain to each of us is our perception of what we have experienced. So what does it mean to me to believe and be baptized? You gotta do more than believe, you gotta surrender your will and will his will.

To me baptism means a completed transaction of the will in which I exchange my will for His. Water baptism on the other hand is not just an outward sign of this transaction, it is a sacramental ritual. The act itself imparts a grace. But that act does not impart salvation. No physical act can do that. I was baptized at the age of 6, I was raised believing in Him, yet at age 18 I became an agnostic rather than reconcile my life style with my beliefs. Even after believing in Him and experienceing water baptism, I didn't have the relationship with Him that I now have until I was in my thirties.

Becoming whole, accetping salavation is a spiritual act, a tranaction in the will which water baptism typifies. The tranaction of will that allows one to become a new creature in Christ Jesus is three fold: believeing, dying, resurrecting. I became a new creature the day I expressed a willinglness to believe that He is, and that if He is, I was ready to lay down my right to myself (die to self) and let His will for my life become my will (become alive to him).

For me, conviction of sin came after this transaction. The awareness of a new life in me came immediately after this transaction and several weeks before adult water baptism. So that is what is plain to me when I read this simple explanation of how to be saved.

Salvation is a complete tranaction of the will in which one believes on Him, dies to self rule, and surrenders to His rule. Does that make it my work? No, no, no. All of Him, none of me. He laid me low on that road to Damascus, where I had no palatable choice but to surrender. PTL for his continual mercies.

So what does it mean to you to be baptized? What is plain to you?


The baptism by the holy spirit. That is the baptism which confers salvation.

[Geezer]

It would seem that the only New Testament that River believes is the book of Acts. But the Holy Spirit inspired a lot more than that.

Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us that it is the gift of God called Grace that saves us, through faith.

It is not of works that we do, but the works that Jesus did on the Cross that saves us and gives us eternal life. Now I have to wonder what is 'eternal life' if it can be lost or thrown away. It is not what we do that gives us eternal life. Can we overturn the gift of God by our own will?

Now I point to Romans 10:10 and then verse 13. How simple can God make it for us?

I further point out the eunuch in verse 37 of Chapter 8 in the book of Acts. If you want to quote the Bible I suggest you read the whole thing, not just the book of Acts. But the Book of Acts is a witness of the historical events that followed the resurrection of Jesus.

The real question is 'who saves us' and the answer is God. The question then is what can I do to save myself, the answer is 'nothing'. Let us just remember the verse Ephesians 2:10 and understand that we are not saved by anything we do, but we are saved for a purpose..... do DO the will of God.

Harold

[River Runner]

Act 8:35-39
[35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
[36] And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
[37] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
[38] And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
[39] And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

When Philip “preached unto him Jesus” he taught the eunuch about baptism, because when they approached a body of water the eunuch replied, “See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?” Philip was fulfilling the command of Jesus in Mark 16:16 – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Now was the eunuch saved at his point of faith? If he was, then why was he baptized after he believed? To show he was already saved…according to Mark 16:16 the eunuch was not saved until after he was baptized.

Hebrews 5:8,9
[8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yes God does the saving (by his grace)….and we have to be obedient to his will (through our faith). Back to Acts 8…would the eunuch have been obedient to God, if he hadn’t been baptized in vs. 38? Would he have gone away rejoicing in vs. 39 if he hadn’t been baptized in vs. 38? Or would he have been like King Agrippa when he told Paul, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.” (Acts 26:28)